Potential geo-technical problems of Lawson Landing

[John Zeger]

I've heard several people telling me this, but this is the first time I've seen it in print. There are two front-page articles in the July 8, 2005 issue of the Capital News that write about geo-technical problems associated with building near the waterfront that could potentially doom the Lawson Landing project.

In two articles, "Provincial Courthouse Falling Apart" and "Structural Issues Not Lost on Building Designs, the Capital News reports that evidence of cracked and broken windows, shifting tiles and concrete, and broken and falling ceiling tiles at the provincial courthouse have been attributed to the present high water level of Okanagan Lake and that the courthouse building was not built to withstand these conditions.

The Capital News goes on to say "Bigger downtown buildings, like the Kelowna Law Courts, require special precautions when being built on the fine soils left by Lake Okanagan to avoid structural problems like the courthouse may be experiencing. It has been speculated that high water tables might have led to damage at the courthouse on Water Street.... The high water table in downtown Kelowna has long been a cause of concern for local developers." Quoting geo-technical engineer Peter Hanenburg, it says "It is not so much the water table as the lake deposits that are prone to static settlement under the building and new fill loads are also prone to seismic settlement. ... There are special measures that need to be addressed and when the water table is high, the sand can be saturated, and if loose, it can liquefy." The article mentions measures such as constructing buildings on a slab of concrete reinforced by stone, steel or concrete columns to help with these geo-technical challenges, but goes on to say that underground parkades and basements have to be protected from high water tables and many also have to be pumped on occasion."

I'm starting to think that Lawson Landing may become a structural nightmare. With towers as high as 36 storeys the force of the weight on any structural supports may be prohitive, and within a few years following its construction it, like the courthouse, may also show building faults and become a potential danger to its occupants. And yes, Lawson Landing will also have an underground parking lot which will be partially submerged in water. Imagine that! I'm sure that it will have to be pumped regularly. A damp physical environment frequently is the cause of the growth of harmful moulds which endanger the health of occupants in that they weaken their immune systems. Lawson Landing could eventually become a useless white elephant sitting on the waterfront as a monument to the folly of Mayor Walter Gray and Kelowna City Council.

[DuaneT]

John Zeger once again is on his unending campaign of fear mongering and it is getting very tiring. What he states above regarding potential Lawson Landing problems is frankly ludicrous. Yes, there are special engineering issues that need to be addressed when building along the waterfront and these types of issues have been faced by engineers all around the world building towers in close proximity to the foreshore. One example is the current construction of the new Vancouver Convention Center. That is being built partly on ground and in the water. Here is a very recent photo of how this is being accomplished:



John Zeger, you see those piles? They are driven deep into the ground and filled with concrete – they provide the stability for the structure above in sea deposits by passing through the soft soil layer to the harder more stable layer. This is just one method of proper Geo-Technical engineering to stabilize buildings in “soft” ground. Maybe you should actually do some research before you start spreading your lies and half-truths. Here is some sites that go into the technical details – please spends some time to education yourself:



Driven Piles – Pre Construction – Soil Stabilization:



www.haywardbaker.com/services/driven_piles.htm



Jacked Piers – Post Construction – Settlement Problems



www.haywardbaker.com/services/jacked_piers.htm



Here is a more technical manual: ( page 2-5 talks about different types of piles )



www.usace.army.mil/inet/usace-docs/eng-manuals/em1110-2-2906/basdoc.pdf



Here is some information on deep excavation:



deepexcavation.com/deep.html



Here is more information on underground parking solutions: ( slurry walls )



www.nicholson-rodio.com/services/walls.html

[John Zeger]

The jury is still out on that, Duane. How about Westcorp's plans for an underground floating parkade? Does that sound reasonable to you? In Edmonton there is a highrise called the Lamplighter that has an underground parkade that floods regularly just due to ordinary rainfall as there is no lake there. I had a friend who moved out of the building because health inspectors confirmed the presence of a toxic mould there due to the damp parkade. She like many others had a weakened immune system and the existence of the mould threatened her health. Ask your friend Phil Milroy how his engineers can guarantee that the same won't happen at Lawson Landing or is that project just some poorly conceived money-making scheme that doesn't care about the well being of its residents?

[Rick Shea]

I always keep in mind a few simple words whenever I am assured that engineers have taken everything into account, and when people are egotistical enough to assume that they know everything there is to know in order to prevent all problems:

Hindenburg
Titanic
Tacoma Narrows Bridge
Leaning tower of Pisa
Use of lead in water lines and cookware in ancient Rome
The sticky lift span on our bridge
Three Mile Island
Chernobyl
Challenger
Columbia
The thousands killed over the years in airplane crashes, including the 1945 crash of a B-25 bomber into the Empire State Building in New York
Exxon Valdez
The North Dakota flood of 1997 ("Much of the losses came in areas where building had taken place in the flood plain.")


... there's so much more, and the list keeps growing, so stay tuned.

It reminds me of the Arrogant Worms' song:

"History is made by stupid people.
Clever people wouldn't even try.
If you want your name in the history books
Then do something dumb before you die."

[cathy]

I always keep in mind a few simple words whenever I am assured that engineers have taken everything into account, and when people are egotistical enough to assume that they know everything there is to know in order to prevent all problems

Would anything have ever been done if no one had ever taken the chance that something could go wrong? It seems that you are suggesting we just sit around and not attempt anything incase we haven't taken everything into account to prevent all problems. That doesn't sound very proactive... being cautious is one thing, but you can over do it. There is enough that has been learned from past projects to prevent a great number of problems, since people have been brave enough to take risks and make mistakes. That's how people learn, and how things are accomplished.

[Rick Shea]

Yes, I thought you might misinterpret me like that. That's so sad.

That's clearly not what I said, so please re-read what I said, and respond again when you're ready.

[cathy]

Yes, I thought you might misinterpret me like that. That's so sad.

That's clearly not what I said, so please re-read what I said, and respond again when you're ready.

You've done almost nothing BUT misinterpret me in your last several responses. I think that's pretty sad. Either way, I responded to what you said, not what you perhaps meant to say, or what you wish you'd said. If that's not what you were suggesting, feel free to defend your statement. I've been doing lots of that lately.

[Rick Shea]

Nope, you still don't get it. Too bad. I'll wait.

BTW, nice color in your last post. Is that the proposed color of the concrete for Lawson Landing? If you ask me, it seems a bit too tree-like for the propavement crowd.

[propeopl]

Cathy, what Rick plainly said is that we need to be a bit more humble in what we do, including things like Lawsons Landing. Arrogance leads to disasters.

That applies to you and the rest of the proconcrete group.

Before you shoot from the lip again, how about Johns advice to Matt to think?

(sound of heavy muffled breathing fades in)

Caaaaaathy.

Use your braaaaaaaain Cathy.

It's the only way to escape the daaaaaaaark side.

(sound of heavy muffled breathing faces away)

[cathy]

Could someone please explain to me why Matt Phillips' posts continue to be deleted from this forum, (including this topic), when he is contributing very reasonable and valad points in an acceptable manner? He has been spoken to about his former conduct here, and is clearly not intending to repeat what caused upset before. He has things to say on the topic like anyone else... why can't he post??

[John Zeger]

Actually, I think Cathy's problem is not only that she doesn't think but that she doesn't feel enough. Our feelings are a kind of intelligence as well that guide us towards what is good and right in the world. Cathy should read the posts on "the importance of beauty in urban planning" under "Planning -- Theory and Practice." Do you ever read poetry, Cathy, or do you just play with computers? For a woman you seem very left brain centered. Work on correcting that imbalance.

[CRCP]

cathy said:

Could someone please explain to me why Matt Phillips' posts continue to be deleted from this forum, (including this topic), when he is contributing very reasonable and valad points in an acceptable manner? He has been spoken to about his former conduct here, and is clearly not intending to repeat what caused upset before. He has things to say on the topic like anyone else... why can't he post??

Matt hasn't served enough of his sentence yet and the probability of him re-offending is still very high in our opinion. Last time out he began by being quite reasonable and in no time turned into an irascible hellion. Perhaps when he gains some maturity and takes up hobbies other than compulsive arguing then at that time his ban will be lifted. We can appreciate that life must be pretty dull for him without someone to lock horns with, but the fact that he needs to do that at all shows us that he still has a lot of work to do on himself.

[cathy]

How do you know what Matt's hobbies are? And perhaps he is merely interested in the subject, and not looking for someone to argue with. He should be able to state his opinion like everyone else. Perhaps you should let him post, on the condition that if he "re-offends", those comments will be deleted, and he will be allowed no further posts. If you think he has a hobbie of "compulsive arguing", perhaps you need to take a closer look at yourself.

[cathy]

Actually, I think Cathy's problem is not only that she doesn't think but that she doesn't feel enough. Our feelings are a kind of intelligence as well that guide us towards what is good and right in the world. Cathy should read the posts on "the importance of beauty in urban planning" under "Planning -- Theory and Practice." Do you ever read poetry, Cathy, or do you just play with computers? For a woman you seem very left brain centered. Work on correcting that imbalance.

Mr. Zeger, that is a direct attack on me, and has nothing at all to do with the subject. You think you can delete Matt's topics of perfect relevance, yet allow yourself to post things such as this against me. I not only study poetry, but compose my own, some of which has been published. I don't think you should guess so much about me, or the domination of my brain, with one brief meeting and some online discussions. Supporting development has nothing to do with a lack of appreciation for natural beauty. Your lack of respect towards people disgusts me.

[Rick Shea]

cathy said:

Your lack of respect towards people disgusts me.

Well, that certainly was a disrespectful statement.

Cathy, I keep hinting. Any chance that we can get back on topic here?