Getting Rid of Downtown Crime

[John Zeger]

One of the major causes of crime downtown has been the presence of drug dealers there. In a column on Castanet today (June 16) RCMP Superintendent Bill McKinnon says "Most of the drug dealers that used to hang-out on Leon have since moved on as a result of stepped-up police presence." So there is no need and no logic behind erecting highrises downtown in order to rid the downtown of crime as some on this forum have suggested.

[cathy]

Where have these people moved on to? Are they not now causing the same problem in another area? Mightn't they come back? Is it not likely that more will arrive as the weather continues to improve, and will re-fill these spaces? Do the local police have nothing better to do that to wander around slapping people on the wrists for doing drugs?
I think there needs to be a more proactive answer to this problem than locating police officers near by. Police presence doesn't make the area undesirable for these people, but merely more of a nuisance. There is no consiquence for drug use, since there just isn't enough space to jail all who are involved, and they would only return to the habit at a later time. Some will undoubtably remain, despite police presence, which doesn't make for a comfortable place to be.
Highrises in the area would increase activity and business, and WOULD make for an undesirable place for drug addicts and homeless people. Since this would also likely relocate them to another local spot, perhaps something could be done in the way of mandatory rehabilitation for those already there, while the newly developed residentially focused area would mean fewer new comers. I believe the mandatory rehabilitation would definitly help to solve this problem, as it has in Singapore already.

[John Zeger]

Cathy said, "Since [highrises downtown] would ... likely relocate [drug dealers and users] to another local spot, perhaps something could be done in the way of mandatory rehabilitation for those already there." Well, Cathy, I think that you and I may finally agree on something. As you acknowledge, increasing densities downtown won't solve the drug-related crime problem in Kelowna but merely displace it to another location. Therefore the answer lies elsewhere such as that offered by the Four Pillars approach of prevention, enforcement, harm reduction, and rehabilitation which the CRCP endorsed a long time ago. This is a complex problem that calls for a comprehensive solution and not simplistic answers such as increasing downtown densities to push the problem to other neighbourhoods.

By the way, welcome to our board and thank you for the mature comment. It's refreshing to read one like yours after too many of the other kind recently.

[cathy]

Thank you.
Another point to my previous post was that a rehabilitation centre, although controlling the current problem, may not prevent new people from coming in to fill those spaces. It could still get out of control if, with more and more drug dealers/users coming from places like Vancouver with the hopes of residing on Kelowna's streets, there end up being too many to control. If Kelowna had an active, high density city centre, this may actually serve to disuade these people from coming.
This other side to this is that i believe, (and could well be wrong,) the establishment of mandatory rehabilitation would require the decriminalization of marijuana, since the users would be being sent for rehab and not to jail. This makes it much harder to enforce, since one step needs to be accomplished before the other.

[John Zeger]

As I've mentioned before a high density city will attract more criminal types not repel them as it offers more inviting targets for criminals. Recall the FBI report that stated that crime was related to "population size and degree of urbanization."

[cathy]

I'm not sure I understand, in that case, why this is such a problem here already, and why it continues to increase. If it's not a desirable area now, why are there so many drug users there already, hense the need for rehab?

[Rick Shea]

...and the next part of that question should be "How much worse will it get if Kelowna continues to grow and densify?"

In other words, the problems from the extended period of rapid growth in Kelowna have only started to become apparent, and will only get worse according to the information John has provided. In a sense, we are innocents, unaccustomed to these relatively new problems in Kelowna, and unable to deal with them using old ideas.

30 years ago is starting to look pretty attractive.

[John Zeger]

Cathy, Vancouver has a higher density than Kelowna. You think they don't have a bigger problem with drug use and prostitution than Kelowna? I was in Toronto recently and there were two prostitutes standing in front of the CBC headquarters downtown. If density is the solution to these problems, then why do high density cities have them?

[cathy]

And why do low density cities also have them, and not ALL high density cities do? I'm still not sure this is a perfect cause/effect situation. I think other factors may play a role. Also, what sort of areas in Vancouver have the biggest drug problems? The areas I have seen which seem to be struggling the most lack things like open store fronts and active residential areas, which likely serve to drive these people away. Another problem may be the lack of places for people to stay, and treatment for addicts.

[John Zeger]

Once again, Cathy, retail establishments act as "attractors" of crime. They do not repel crime. How many sociology courses have you taken in your lifetime?

[cathy]

Mr. Zeger, I don't believe my lack of post-secondary education should come into this. I am genuinly interested in learning about this subject. You have stated that high density attracts drug users, but i have witnessed evidence against the idea that active, residential and open-business areas experience large drug problems. Please explain this to me; i am interested to know.

[John Zeger]

If you want to learn, Cathy, I'm happy to oblige not with my own personal opinions but with the research of a Ph.D. candidate. Please go to

www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/maps/dallas2001/HayslettMcCall.pdf

I appreciate the fact that you are a bright young lady, but just being bright and having access to the internet doesn't make you an instant Ph.D. Some of your posts show a thingysuredness that I don't think is justified by your age and education. Try to be a little more humble if you are genuinely motivated to learn. I'm not an expert on this subject myself, but I learn from people who are. I won't learn anything if I start out with the attitude that I already know it all.

[John Zeger]

Increased police presence in the downtown is having a definite impact as the Kelowna Daily Courier reports on July 4, 2005 in a front page article "Downtown Mayhem Dwindles." The Courier states that "consistent police enforcement is having an effect [in moving drug dealers and users out of the downtown core]." Some observers have commented that the RCMP has done a "fantastic job." Shame on Councillor Brian Given for attempting to discredit the role of the RCMP in our community on CKOV recently. He doesn't deserve another term as city councillor.

The one notable mistake that has been made is in allowing B.C. Interior Health to locate the new needle exhange on Leon Avenue. But it was a lack of diligence on the part of Mayor Walter Gray and city council (including Brian Given) that led to this collosal mistake having been made. You can read a condensed version of the article at www.kelownadailycourier.ca/archive/2005/07/04/stories/8155_full.php4?latest_date=2005/07/04

[Rick Shea]

I note the article on the front page of today's Capital News regarding auto theft in Kelowna.

Under the headline "Auto theft spirals upward," the lead sentence begins "Kelowna is B.C.'s new hot spot for stolen cars...." The next paragraph states that "Kelowna has the largest growing auto-theft problem in the whole province."

The reason given?

"Auto theft is like a barometer that shows the level of drug addiction in a city...They use them to go out and commit other crimes" to get money for more drugs.

Part of the article talks about the "bait car" program, where rigged cars are deliberately left to be stolen, and which seems to be reducing auto theft in Vancouver.

My personal opinion, without having the data available, is that this program works not so much as a deterrent, but rather because it gets some of the high volume thieves behind bars at least temporarily. I'm looking forward to seeing the actual data, though.

So, would you like to see a bait car program implemented in Kelowna?

And of course, I have a comment that, in addition to all the other problems, Kelowna has now become known for its drug addiction and car theft profile. What a wonderful city we live in!

[John Zeger]

CRCP has congratulated RCMP Superintendent Bill McKinnon and his staff on their recent crackdown on the Hells Angels. The Hells Angels have been identified by the RCMP as the chief source of drugs used by the local homeless population. As a result of the crackdown on the Angels and other drug dealers McKinnon said "you can hardly find anyone in City Park outside of tourists and families." More resources for policing in our city has always been part of the solution to problems of downtown drug-related crime. Those who suggest that increasing downtown densities is the way to solve problems of crime and homelessness are reaching for false solutions.